Talk:Stormwind House of Commons
How do you intend to provide a fair and comprehensive vote for the members of the House? Also, I was under the impression your project was not planning to move into the role of legislating, viewing it as unnecessary and unhelpful. Why the change? Arathorstories (talk) 09:00, October 9, 2016 (UTC) Hi Everen, We are currently working out the voting process, but for electoral votes we will be using a wide variety of resources to conduct elections, should that avenue be pursued. In terms of in-house voting, it works as would any normal vote for a bill (Majority wins). What would a parliament be without implementing legislature...? Admiral Ranets Daggerfang (talk) 10:25, October 9, 2016 (UTC) Hello, Yeah, so, the page has rules on various voting rules based on the previous rules of the House of Nobles, for consistency. Though I imagine you're asking about the elections themselves. In terms of what's pragmatic, I understand the concern and share it. It will be a calendar event. Should someone wish to run for candidacy then they can inform the electoral leaders and people can be sorted into their respective seats (See the page for number of seats based on zones). If no one contends a seat then, like all democracies, they're automatically elected in (no issues there). If, and likely when, there are two candidates vying for a seat then we can get to the second process. Everyone that shows up for the election will be placed into raid groups. From these raid groups we can announce the two candidates and we could cast votes by standing on different sides of a room where the candidate is standing, or perhaps ready-checking (With a time limit to ensure AFKs don't count as 'not ready'), or a smarter, practical idea that anyone else has. I don't think more than 60 people will be trying to be elected and if we spread them out across 30 seats, I can only imagine we would need races between two candidates. If there are seats contended by more than two people, then yes, the process will be slowed down considerably. Though, rooms have four walls so we could do elections with four spots if need be haha.. if that's the voting system that's preferred. As for your other question, regarding why legislate, the answer is simply it's very, very popular. Of all the people I've spoken to, everyone is much more passionate about a House of Commons than a deliberative group. As you see in the page itself, the details are comprehensive and a lot of thought has gone into the contingencies and powers. I've conceded a lot of powers of modern House of Commons and have done my best to get it as close to a 13/14th Century Britsih House of Commons without sacrificing RP value. The HoN still has a veto (Article 3.2 ©) over anything, the HoC can't declare war or appoint dignitaries or any of that. This post is far too long now, so I'll stop :) Lucybell123 (talk) 11:59, October 9, 2016 (UTC) Is it deliberate that there is no requirement that Members are not required to foreswear loyalty to any other state or sovereign, and that they currently are not required to be literate? Arathorstories (talk) 12:15, October 9, 2016 (UTC) Well, The Oath of Commons covers the issue of loyalty to the Kingdom if that's your concern. But no, it is not deliberate that there is no article that they are literate. That said, there is no article in the HoN requiring literacy so *shrug* I'm not entirely sure that literacy is essential to being decent statesman, there's no shortage of scribes on Azeroth! --Lucybell123 (talk) 12:32, October 9, 2016 (UTC) The oath of commons does not require the renunciation of foreign citizenship nor that the person taking it renounce all loyalty to foreign states and sovereigns. Arathorstories (talk) 12:35, October 9, 2016 (UTC) Indeed, The reason being is that the Kingdom of Stormwind has a Dwarven District built in. I think they deserve to run for the Commons, being members of the city. I dont think they should have to forsake their former loyalties and families to do so. Furthermore, the park used to be the night elf sanctuary and plenty of Worgen occupy Stormwind. There's a requirement of 7 years in the Alliance and an oath to the kingdom. But renouncing former oaths is a tough issue, simply because of ALL the commoners who call Stormwind home but hold foreign allied loyalties ... I don't think its necessary for the commons (because foreign policy is not their business) that they necessarily renounce old oaths. I understand the predicament and if people think the residents of the Dwarven District are not members of the Kingdom of Stormwind then sure, I'll happily add in a part in the oath about exclusive loyalty :) --Lucybell123 (talk) 12:49, October 9, 2016 (UTC) So you propose to give lawmaking power over the Kingdom - and though a law must pass through the HoN for approval, the lawmaking power is nonetheless vested in the Commons in your model - to people whose loyalties are not solely to the Kingdom, who are not citizens of the Kingdom, and who are citizens or subjects of foreign powers? Do I understand correctly? Arathorstories (talk) 13:18, October 9, 2016 (UTC) Hi, I'm confused. So I see with this that the House of Commons is going to be the lawmakers in the Kingdom. Now firstly, I don't understand how this will be created because as you guys have said in your page "Second Congress of the House of Nobles" The King has, in the Second Congress, changed the House from a law-making directive into a round table discussion-based group. In light of recent events, the King and his loyalists understand the need for more power to the executive for the security of the Kingdom. Though, as always, the House of Nobles remains the greatest check on the King's power to this day. Yet in your article for this you state that: The campaign for the House of Commons is being spearheaded by Lucy Bell, a union leader, and Casey Stonebridge, a Stormwind Magistrate. The campaign has gained significant popularity in recent weeks and awaits ratification by the House of Nobles. How can this be ratified if by your logic you took the power away from the Nobility and gave it to the King. That also brings up the point that if you give the Commons the full lawmaking power shouldn't the House of Nobles be the check on the Commons? Plus you state in the "Second Congress" article that this isn't a constitutional monarchy anymore, or a parliamentary monarchy but instead an oligarchy. Now I'm no scholar or anything, but an oligarchy is a small group of people having control of the country. So wouldn't it be safe to say that with the King having all the power that's neither an oligarchy or a parliamentary monarchy but instead an absolute monarchy? What would the justification be to have a House of Commons if you've just given the King all the power. I'm just really confused because you guys leave gaps here and there and it just... doesn't work. Lord Commander Lantos Swiftsong (talk) 13:42, October 9, 2016 (UTC) Well, IRL people with dual citizenship can run for Congress - it was shown unconstitutional to have exlusive loyalty in a 1967 case of Alforyim v Rusk. ''These two alleged dual citizensthat I plucked off the internet: - John Mccaine is apparently a dual citizen with Panama (which caused him trouble due to natural-born-citizenship clause for Presidency in 2008) - Ted Cruz is a dual citizen with Canada (which he renounced in 2014) I can accept that if the majority of people don't want those with two centres of loyalty being involved, then by all means but even the US which has extreme protections against tyranny and foreign rule of power accepts dual citizens as Congressman As for the second part, I am sorry for the confusion but that page is obsolete now. I would take it down or mark it for removal but I'm not quite sure how. The second part of why have it is simply because ICly Lucy spoke with Casey and she steered her in a new direction. She changed her mind about it and forming a legislative body instead. It's very popular ICly, no one seems to dislike the idea because it means that more than Noble RPers can become involved in political RP. That said, it's just a 'proposed' body of legislation and if the HoN does not wish it to exist then it can raise its mighty hammer and annhilate it... though I have been informed it was voted on in an old HoN session - I'm unsure what the outcome of that vote was. Would be interesting. In terms of what system it is, it represents the Westminster bicameral Constitutional Monarchy, yes. As for how it works, simply read the House of Commons page as ''Tabula Rasa. '' Lucybell123 (talk) 18:39, October 9, 2016 (UTC) It failed to meet the needed threshold at votes under the prior HoN was the outcome. Now, as for your argument about citizenship. It doesn't work. First, you will find no non-citizens taking part in the American senate - your rules would permit non-citizens to sit in the Commons because it hinges on the nebulous idea of 'alliance citizenship' (which would mean a citizen of ''any member-state of the Grand Alliance, which is not a nation but a military and economic bloc, and thus grants equal status to sit in the Commons to a Dwarf without Stormwind citizen as it does to one with citizenship). Second, it is not a universal presumption that you can hold dual citizenship and sit in a house of parliament. For instance, we Australians absolutely forbid it in our constitution - for that matter, the concept of dual citizenship itself is not universally accepted. Arathorstories (talk) 00:16, October 10, 2016 (UTC) Alrighty, you've convinced me! I'll put in a clause about exclusive loyalty to the Crown of Stormwind (though, this will erase almost all other racial representation) and a requirement that the members solely be citizens of the Kingdom of Stormwind :) Lucybell123 (talk) 00:34, October 10, 2016 (UTC) I just edited article 3.2(a) surrounding citizenship and loyalty. Also, I have added a reference to the Crown in the ''Oath ''to account for this change too. Please send through any more criticisms Lucybell123 (talk) 00:46, October 10, 2016 (UTC) Hi, if you want a page deleted you can mark it with the category "Candidate for Deletion" and an admin like myself will get to it. My one suggestion would be to you, if you're so willing to change everything around as criticism comes in, why not just get involved with reviving the original HoN project that Maxen is leading, in that case you can just like, idk also get some of these editions into it and it unifies the two projects. Just a suggestion of course. Lord Commander Lantos Swiftsong (talk) 00:56, October 10, 2016 (UTC) What is the rationale for the large number of overseas seats? 1/6th of all seats in the Nation's legislative body coming from outside the nation is rather peculiar, and creates disproportionately powerful vote-for-vote representation for those in Valiance Keep (etc) which are minor military outposts or outright foreign territories (e.g. Andorhal, Ironforge) governed by their own law and custom. Arathorstories (talk) 00:59, October 10, 2016 (UTC) To answer yours Lantos, the answer is that I'm not opposed to anything the HoN is doing or anything. You changed my mind on the rp value of it the other day to be honest, in regards to the RP enjoyment of actual legislating. The reason Lucy is campaigning for a House of Commons is because it's what my character would do and has found there is a lot of support for. Lucy intends on bringing it up with the members of the HoN when it reforms. The House of Nobles has my full support, there's no way a HoC can exist without a HoN. As for your suggestion around changing course, I do intend on Lucy being involved with bothering the HoN with commoner's affairs regardless of whether a HoC becomes a reality or not haha ! -- As I told you the other day, I had no idea a HoN was being reformed and it just so happened that I independently and simultaneously started to do a similar thing - which I modified in light of learning this. With the other concern, Proportionately yes, 5 seats are from outside the realms of Stormwind. The reasoning I had behind these seats were: It makes sense to have a representative of the Stormwindians living in Ironfroge and Dun Morogh, which I imagine is a lot considering that a Tram connects the two cities. As for Andorhal, this is to represent the Kingdom's interests in Lordaeron and the Stormwindians living in the upper continent. Menethil Harbor was chosen because a number of Stormwindians live there, hence the need for Exalted status with Stormwind to buy the horses in Menethil Habor. Valiance Keep is the Alliance stronghold in Northrend and would also represent the Westbrook Garrison in Grizzly Hills. I just assumed a seat for the Stormwindians of Northrend was understandable. As for Kalimdor, located in Darnassus, it's the same thing. Many Crown expeditions and soldiers would be located throughout the entire continent of Kalimdor. I imagine the Crown would have interest in the amount of Stormwind citizens in Kalimdor. The reason I chose 5 seats was to make an even number of seats at 30. These can easily be increased or decreased as this is obviously a proposal. Lucybell123 (talk) 01:29, October 10, 2016 (UTC) In the model of bicameral power you've nominated, the concerns of citizens on foreign soil would be a matter for the Houses of Nobles, not the House of Commons. It is also somewhat, though not completely, irregular to have seats in a legislative body that hold elections for those who have willingly left their own country to live elsewhere. Arathorstories (talk) 01:39, October 10, 2016 (UTC) Two things. While yes, Everen that is the system we use in Straya, we can do whatever we want in the HoC as its our fanon. If we want a House of Commons which allows representatives from other member states, we can do that. As for how that all works I suggest the following. Those from say Ironforge etc. whom wish to be a representative in the Commons must have an Alliance Citizenship as well as a commendation from their state of primary loyalty (Ironforge) and have it sent to the Lord presiding over the House of Commons whom will accept the commendation and assign them Representative status which essentially means they represent Ironforge in the Commons, but can only really vote in certain areas. I.E. trade agreements or workers affairs but they wouldn't be able to vote in say, renaming the Old Town into the Crime District. Of course a criteria would have to be made but ultimately I think its a good system to work on both sides of the coin. Additionally with HoN, in all seriousness if we want to create the HoC, we can. This is meant to be a platform for political RP in which people of the common background can join, not just nobles. This is not a threat for the HoN, but rather an expansion of its RP spectrum. But as we are creating the HoC, realistically we can create any policy we like. If we feel people shouldn't be restricted on their literacy, but rather how many electoral votes they recieve, we can have that in there should we choose. Ultimately what we want is to provide the best, open environment for everyone which is why this duel-citizenship and literacy issue is in there. Hope this helps. Admiral Ranets Daggerfang (talk) 06:09, October 10, 2016 (UTC) Certainly, you can do whatever you want with the HoC. I raised the Australian prohibition in response to the raising of the American permission, not as a prescriptive statement but as a contrasting one to show that the premise - dual-citizenship holding MPs - is not in fact universally accepted. As it stands, your statement does not reflect the published state. No element of what is written speaks of commendations from their 'state of primary loyalty' nor any such role of the 'Lord of Commons' nor any such restriction on the hypothetical voting rights of a Dwarven representative. Incidentally, why exactly would Ironforge-as-Ironforge hold a vote in the internal politics of Stormwind? They are not a vassal of Stormwind, nor a federalized state. They are a seperate sovereign nation. While we're at it, let's discuss 'Alliance citizenship'. While I understand you are inclined to view the Alliance as one big nationstate, they are actually seperate and distinct countries that are members of a military and political Alliance. The concept of 'Alliance citizenship' is a flawed one because there is no common central government or territorial authority between the Alliance states, and while we see the odd reference to 'Alliance citizens' (e.g. the Darkmoon Faire crowd NPCs, and the Hero's Call quests), these are better understood as actually referring to 'Citizens of an Alliance member State' than as conferring a universal citizenship between those states. You are quite correct that you - with the other creators of the HoC - may set any policy you like. I may question any policy you make, as I like. That is what I am doing. Have I at any point said 'you cannot do ?' (as opposed to 'as written isn't actually possible under your own ruleset' during these questions? You are also correct that this is not a threat to the HoN. If the HoN desires to resume operation, it can and will regardless of what the HoC or Second Congress is doing. However, we have been talking to Lucy about it as both sides agree that working together towards our similar ends (the fostering of political roleplay) is preferable to working seperately, at least at this stage and pending any insurmountable differences of opinion or ideology. Arathorstories (talk) 06:37, October 10, 2016 (UTC) Yeah, sorry I shouldn't have left this thread open ended like that. The discussion, being multi-faceted amd contentious, was moved and best served in a private forum. I'm currently working with the Stormwind Law Project and others to ensure that if a HoC comes to fruition, it does according to existing precedents. The aim is to propose a HoC that unites and doesn't divide, under the authority of existing models. The HoC is an IC proposal that will be ratified or struck down ICly by a HoN because they're the only authority who can do so lorefully. I agree that a HoN needs to be established before there is discussion of a HoC for the sake of legitimacy and loreful rp. Of course it will be hard to establish a HoC if we're to do it genuinely and lorefully IC, but this is part of the fun! :) There's no rush to get this done. I'd rather it be done slowly and correctly, than rushed and divisive. --Lucybell123 (talk) 08:08, October 10, 2016 (UTC) For the benefit of those not present in that chat, I'm going to briefly address the literacy matter here as well. There is a fundamental difference between the two Houses in that their members come by their position differently. Members of the House of Nobles are automatically admitted to the House upon assuming a suitable peerage title, without qualification. Essentially, the right of admission vests in the title, and as the title is inherited, so is the right. Thus, the right vests in the title vested in the person. The only criterion of eligibility is possession of the title, either via inheritance or via royal decree. Thus, the effective criteria are sealed until such a time as there is a unanimous vote to change them or a royal decree to do so. Presumably royal decree in this situation would have to be substituted in for by the unanimous or near-unanimous OOC consensus of HoN participants to make such a change. This stands in contrast to members of the House of Commons as it is currently proposed, where the voting right vests in the office and not in the person themselves. As it stands, there is also an opportunity to create whatever criteria are reasonable and desireable as the body is being constructed as a creature of statute, meaning that while the process of attaining noble title is more-or-less fixed (though of course people can do otherwise and have their own elective baroncies if they desire, etc) the process of attaining office as an MP for the House of Commons is at present mutable. As such they occupy different categories and the requirements for eligibility of the two cannot reasonably be compared, though the scribal counterargument remains valid. Arathorstories (talk) 09:00, October 10, 2016 (UTC) I'd like to say that I believe that getting Lucy onto the Discord (which I want to get you and others involved in the HoC onto as well for the Stormwind Law Project) led to a very productive discussion last night that will only help the project as a whole come Thursday when we discuss bringing back the HoN as a group. Already before Lucy came onto the discord she had stated in this article that the HoN needed to ratify this so my thought was that getting here and others involved with this into the law project and into the mix of rebuilding the HoN would then allow us as a whole group instead of two divided projects work on creating the HoC to continue building the opportunities of political roleplay for Moon Guard. So I'd like to thank both Lucy and Everen and anyone else who participated last night because I feel the conversation on there was very productive and I'd like to extend an invite onto the law project discord to you, Ranets, and if you contact me within the next hour or so I can get you an invite so you can be on here. Lord Commander Lantos Swiftsong (talk) 11:10, October 10, 2016 (UTC) Apologies for not being able to respond sooner, but I would love to join you on Discord! I will speak to Lucy later so we can get a plan of action going and I appreciate your support. Admiral Ranets Daggerfang (talk) 18:26, October 10, 2016 (UTC)